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Yves right here. Regardless that the dangers of nuclear battle are rising, with America’s new belligerence and Israel having over-extended itself whereas remaining decided to subdue Iran among the many elevated dangers, most need to avert their eyes from this risk to humanity and loads of life on this planet. For example, Tucker Carlson had an prolonged dialogue with an professional on what a nuclear battle would produce, which was extremely informative if additionally predictably deeply disturbing. But it received just one million views, which is mild for certainly one of his interviews. I encourage you to take the time to look at it.
It’s a measure of their madness that leaders all over the world are severely contemplating nuclear battle. Ivana Hughes of Columbia on what that might imply.
(0:00) How Highly effective Are Nuclear Weapons?
(9:46) What Would Occur if a Nuke Detonated Over Instances Sq.?
(19:53) What Is… pic.twitter.com/Thux3JLtgE— Tucker Carlson (@TuckerCarlson) October 17, 2025
On a joint presentation by Theanalysis.information and The Approach Ahead: Regenerative Conversations, Paul Jay talks with Dr. John Izzo and Alain Gauthier concerning the dangers of nuclear battle, offering a historic perspective knowledgeable by Jay’s lengthy relationship with Daniel Ellsberg.
Initially revealed at Theanalysis.information
That is an auto-generated model of the transcript. An edited model can be arriving shortly.
Dr John Izzo
There are three issues that may finish life on Earth as we all know it for humanity. Two are within the information on a regular basis, however the third one, a risk that’s been round for 70 years, is sort of by no means talked about, however we should speak about it. The primary is local weather change and the destruction of the atmosphere, which is within the information on a regular basis. The second is AI and superintelligence which will, the truth is, make us pets sooner or later. However the third one, which we don’t speak about, has been round for 70 years, however the hazard is as nice or higher than it’s ever been. Most individuals assume it’s only a Chilly Struggle relic, and I’m speaking about nuclear battle. On this podcast as we speak, we’ll present you why nuclear battle continues to be an pressing and imminent concern that each one of us should take note of with award-winning documentarian Paul Jay about his upcoming movie, How one can Cease Nuclear Struggle. You don’t need to miss this podcast, each minute of it, as a result of that is the one risk considering persons are not desirous about, however we should. So Let’s get began. Hello, I’m Dr. John Iso, and I’d prefer to welcome you to this episode of the Wayfoward Regenerative Conversations podcast, the place, as you already know, we discover points and concepts about the way forward for humanity and planet, particularly from this angle of these over 60 and the way we will weigh in to make a distinction for future generations, no matter age you might be, welcome.
Dr John Izzo
Now, as we speak’s matter is well timed, it’s necessary, and it’s pressing, despite the fact that most of us really feel that manner. Right here’s my take. If you concentrate on the issues that concern most human beings, go to a celebration of considering individuals, desirous about the long run or the current and what worries individuals. You hear issues about AI and the economic system, and possibly AI goes to destroy the planet and make us pets. You’ll definitely hear about local weather change and the destruction of the atmosphere. You’re prone to hear concern concerning the battle in Gaza and the battle in Ukraine, and maybe the rising army in China. What you most likely is not going to hear in even most considering circles is any concern or dialog about nuclear battle. However right here’s my perspective. On this era, the Gen Zs and younger millennials, about 50 to 60% of them have rising and unimaginable anxiousness about local weather and what meaning for his or her future and their kids’s future. However they might assume they’ve a nook on anxiousness concerning the future. However being a child boomer, I can inform you our anxiousness concerning the future was all about nuclear battle. Struggle. I bear in mind as a younger youngster rising up in New York Metropolis, we might do drills the place we hid beneath the desk making ready for a nuclear battle, principally bend over and kiss your butt goodbye.
Dr John Izzo
I bear in mind within the early ’70s, once I was in highschool, Being in New York Metropolis, figuring out that we have been actually at floor zero, the epicenter, if the Russians have been to launch these nuclear weapons, we have been going to be a number of the first to go. And I bear in mind nights once I couldn’t fall asleep figuring out that in only a brief 18 to twenty minutes, my life and everybody that I like may very well be over. Now, as we quick forwarded by way of the years into the ’80s, issues began to look a bit higher. There began to be arms management and agreements to start to restrict nuclear arms and the nuclear arms race. There was change within the Soviet Union when the Berlin Wall fell, and instantly it appeared like a relic of the Chilly Struggle previous. However quick ahead to this current second, and I’d argue that it’s as harmful or extra harmful than maybe it’s ever been. There’s a brand new arms race occurring, each in Russia, in China, and in america, creating new and extra destabilizing weapons on a regular basis. The flashpoints are getting higher and higher, and we’re residing, as many individuals say in a current movie, in a home of dynamite.
Dr John Izzo
We actually are surrounded by weapons that would finish life as we all know it in a brief 30 to 90 minute window, and but we’re pretending that every part is ok. And that’s what makes this dialog station as we speak so necessary and well timed, as a result of these of us who care concerning the future should flip our consideration once more to this seeming relic of the Chilly Struggle previous that could be very a lot a gift risk in actuality. And as we speak we’re privileged to have an award-winning Canadian movie director and producer Paul Jay, who’s now engaged on his newest venture, How one can Cease Nuclear Struggle. It couldn’t be extra necessary. It couldn’t be extra well timed. Another attention-grabbing perspective earlier than we get began. Apparently, when Ronald Reagan first took workplace, actually on the top of the Chilly Struggle in his presidency, he was instructed that he would have about six minutes, six brief minutes to resolve what to do in a nuclear emergency, to which Ronald Reagan supposedly stated one thing like this, Nobody would be capable of make a superb and prudent determination in six minutes about one thing that necessary. Anyway, Alon, I’m going to show it over to you as we to welcome Paul Jay into our dialog this morning.
Alain Gauthier
Welcome, Paul. You’ve gotten had a diversified life.
Dr John Izzo
You as soon as have been a truck driver and labored as a railroad mechanic earlier than changing into a filmmaker.
Paul Jay
May you share a narrative or second early in your life that set you on this journey into journalism and documentary filmmaking? I can’t decide a second, however how a couple of second that pushed me in the direction of doing this movie early in my life? I additionally grew up with duck and canopy. I’m born in 1951, So once I’m in public college, I’m hiding beneath my desk. All of us grew up within the ’50s with a sense of an imminent risk of nuclear battle and surrounded by chilly battle propaganda. Not solely did we concern nuclear battle, we have been instructed to concern a Soviet invasion of Europe. We have been instructed to concern a Soviet assault on america. We have been instructed that higher useless than crimson. We grew up enveloped in a tradition of intentionally created paranoia. It’s solely later in my life I begin to understand how a lot of that paranoia was a cloth of lies. In 1958, ’59, we’re instructed there’s a bomber hole, and we’re instructed the Soviet bombers are coming in masse. That turned out to be an enormous lie. Actually, there was a bomber hole, nevertheless it was manner, manner on the aspect of the US.
Paul Jay
The Soviet aspect, barely a couple of bombers, nuclear bombers. We have been instructed there was a defensive protect defending America, Anyway, I don’t know. Canada was a part of it. I don’t know the way protected Canada was. It’s known as the SAGE Radar System, which I realized later was a complete boondoggle. It by no means labored, partly as a result of they by no means solved the issue of radar jamming. However get this, the SAGE Radar System. That is beginning within the late ’50s into the early ’60s, which just about nobody’s ever heard of. I’m guessing none of you guys have ever heard of it. The SAGE Radar System price 3 times the Manhattan Undertaking. It was over. It was near 1. 5 % of the GDP of america, and nobody’s ever heard of the rattling factor. Not solely that, it by no means labored. And there’s research that have been commissioned by Mactamara, the place it says proper clearly within the research, the factor by no means labored. It’s the start of the anti-ballistic missile system, boondoggles. And within the movie, we’re going to inform this entire story, as a result of the place are we now? The Golden Dome, the newest of the Bündogels. Anyway, I grew up within the early ’60s, the Cuban Missile Disaster, the assassination of Kennedy.
Paul Jay
So by the point I’m about 14, 15, I resolve I’m carried out with college as a result of I gained’t reside until 20. And so I stop college in grade 10, and I don’t return. And it’s Somewhat bit like Ellsberg’s story in some methods, when he went to work at RAN Company, he was supplied a pension. He’s about 30 years previous when he goes to RAN, 29. He simply laughs and refuses the pension plan. There’s no manner I’ll be round to gather the pension. So at any fee, I grew up believing, and rightly so to a big extent, that that nuclear battle might occur at any time. Now, as you talked about in your glorious introduction, John, that all of us began saying, Nicely, possibly it ain’t going to occur. And definitely by the ’90s, it appeared the Chilly Struggle was over and the risk was diminished. And now I, too, was rather more involved about local weather and other forms of standard battle and financial inequality and so forth. Then I learn Ellsberg’s e-book, Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear Struggle Planner. And I learn that about 2018. Then I did an extended collection of interviews with Dan. Then I spotted that e-book and what Dan needed to say, in some methods, was possibly crucial factor I’d ever learn, given what was at stake.
Paul Jay
So I talked to Dan and determined to make the movie. The wanting the story is Dan was a really dedicated chilly warrior. He grew up on this tradition of this intentionally constructed anticipated exaggeration of the Soviet risk. And I can speak a bit extra about it, however what it truly is about, and we’re going to get into this within the movie, it’s a tradition that has started lengthy earlier than there even was a Soviet Union.
Dr John Izzo
So Paul, to begin with, thanks for that. I actually need to get into your relationship with Daniel Ellsberg. And for these of you who don’t bear in mind, Daniel was an insider within the US authorities, within the army complicated within the CIA. After which he’s the one well-known for leaking the Pentagon papers concerning the lies through the Vietnam Struggle, after which actually grew to become an unimaginable activist, as you stated, together with his e-book about doomsday, however an unimaginable activist properly into his ’80s and early ’90s round nuclear battle. However let’s begin, Paul, on the highest stage. So many individuals, as you stated, consider it as this Chilly Struggle relic. Inform us why The primary headline, then I need to get into your expertise with Daniel, why we must be involved about this now. Why is it as necessary or possibly much more harmful than it’s ever… I feel it’s really extra harmful than it’s ever been. And I ponder what your ideas are. What’s the headline? Give individuals why, of us, this isn’t one thing of the previous.
Paul Jay
Nicely, the primary level is the Chilly Struggle by no means ended. So people who speak about it’s essentially the most harmful time for the reason that finish of the Chilly Struggle. The Chilly Struggle didn’t finish as a result of the Chilly Struggle was by no means about Soviet army growth. That was the excuse. However there was no Soviet army growth, and that’s been clearly documented now. As soon as the Yalta Settlement was carried out, sure, there was interventions in Czechoslovakia. There was an intervention by the Soviet Hungary. The one actual army journey you could possibly say the Soviet Union did outdoors of the Yalta Settlement was the invasion of or intervention in Afghanistan. And that was clearly a defensive posture. I imply, Afghanistan was on their border, and the Individuals, Brzezinski, beloved to brag about how they sucked the Soviet Union into that by arming the jihadists with anti-helicopter missiles and so forth. However But it surely was very well-known. And once I say very well-known, I imply by these people who had entry to the intelligence. The CIA was producing report each single 12 months, ’46, ’47, ’48, all by way of the late ’40s, into the ’50s and the headline of the stories, and we have now these stories, and we’ll present them within the movie.
Paul Jay
The title of the stories have been, Is the Soviet Union a risk, a army risk, to Europe and the america? And 12 months after 12 months, the conclusion of the CIA was, no, there’s no army risk. They’re in a defensive posture. There’s even a report that’s titled, Now that the Soviet Union has a nuclear weapon, is it a army risk? And the conclusion was, no, they’ve nuclear weapons in a defensive posture as a result of we have now nuclear weapons. It isn’t an offensive risk. Even George Kennen, who was a really senior American diplomat, had this well-known cable he despatched, writer by Mr. X, nevertheless it seems it was George Kennen. He stated, and so did many others in very senior ranges of the Truman administration. It is a political ideological risk to the American world system. Possibly not precise phrases, however shut. It’s not a army risk. And that’s the The true gist of the Chilly Struggle was that, and this planning begins, we’re going to doc, the planning begins in 1939, 1940, working led by the Council on International Relations, funded by the Rockefellers. The planning for this begins through the battle, and it’s basically what Henry Luce, the man who revealed Time, Life journal, it’s the American Century.
Paul Jay
And the American Century was very easy. It was a plan that the complete non-Soviet world should be a part of an American-led world capitalism. And the basic mission of US overseas coverage is to stop nations leaving the American sphere and becoming a member of a socialist sphere. And it wasn’t about Soviet army expansionism. The reality is, the true factor they have been afraid of have been nationwide liberation actions in Asia, Africa, and Latin America, and that they’d grow to be socialist. They tried to decorate this up and body it as Soviet army expansionism. However the place does the US go to battle first in a serious manner? Korea. They knew the Soviets weren’t going to intervene in Korea. Cia was saying it. They knew there was no Chinese language intervention deliberate later that comes. However did the Chinese language intervene as a result of the Individuals did intervene. The place’s the subsequent huge battle? Vietnam. Had nothing to do with Soviet army expansionism. They knew very properly, the truth is, that the Vietnamese Nationwide Liberation Motion had began proper after the battle, when the French tried to recolonize Vietnam. It was an unbiased, indigenous, you could possibly say, Nationwide Liberation Motion. It had fashionable help. And in an American paperwork, and Dan knew this properly from the Pentagon papers, if there had been an election, it was well-known, Ho-Chimmin would have gained the election.
Paul Jay
It had fashionable help. So the intervention in Vietnam had nothing to do with Soviet army expansionism. It needed to do with defending the American sphere. And it’s very attention-grabbing. We’re finding out these historical past, the Council on International Relations now. They really did a examine on might america go it alone? That means, might you will have a world the place Britain, United States, South America basically create a block and overlook about the remainder of the world? And the reply was not with out Indochina. That the American financial prosperity was the time period they used, couldn’t survive with out the rubber, the tin, three quarters of the world’s rice manufacturing. You wanted Indochina as a part of a geopolitical positioning with the intention to have a profitable American world system. So the invasion of Vietnam, once more, had nothing to do with Soviet expansionism, nevertheless it did need to do with stopping nationwide liberation actions, detaching from the American sphere and trending, gravitating in the direction of socialism. In order that has not ended. That’s nonetheless the system, the outlook. That’s nonetheless the world imaginative and prescient we belong in. Nato was not created to guard Europe from a Soviet invasion. Nato was created to ensnare Europe within the American sphere, to be sure that Europe, each economically and by way of its army infrastructure, was inside the American sphere.
Paul Jay
But it surely was a plan that realized from the tip of World Struggle I. As an alternative of destroying and looking for compensation from the defeated Germany and Japan, they allowed these nations to rebuild in a manner that they stayed inside the American sphere. In order that they realized from World Struggle I. And this was really what the entire function of the Council on International Relations was throughout this planning of World Struggle II. The fundamental level is the DNA of the system is looking for monopoly, looking for monopoly, even simply Company versus Company. However that looking for a monopoly exists as a basic financial driver globally. And for those who’re not a rustic that’s sufficiently big to be the hegemon, you soar on the hegemon practice like Canada. Canada didn’t get the playing cards dealt to grow to be the hegemon. So Canada rides the US gravy, plundering the world previous gravy practice. And we’re a big arms producer in Canada. I feel we’re quantity 9 or 10 on the planet. So loads of arms, together with components of the nuclear. So the basic factor now could be the competition with China Primary, the system was at all times meant that there ought to by no means be a peer competitor. They use this time period within the final even 20 years known as the all full spectrum dominance.
Paul Jay
Nicely, you possibly can’t have full spectrum dominance when you haven’t only a pure competitor, a competitor that’s profitable the industrial rivalry. Quantity two, you possibly can’t enable Russia into Europe in a full manner. It has an excessive amount of potential to be too huge, too highly effective. And it threaten NATO, not as a result of it’s a army risk, however Russia has the potential, and positively within the historical past, the 1800s, 1900s, even return within the 1700s. I imply, Russia has the potential to be a heavyweight participant. And picture if Russia, after the ’90s had been integrated into Europe. And picture if there had been a Russian-German-French alliance, properly, US would have basically misplaced its dominant place in Europe. That helped gasoline the event of a really poisonous regime, which is what exists now in Russia. The identical manner… I’m leaping to issues. I’m assuming your viewers know loads of what I’m saying. The best way the Versailles Treaty helped gasoline the rise of fascism in Germany, this excluding of Russia from trendy Europe after the autumn of the Soviet Union helped gasoline a really poisonous, I don’t know if the phrase fascist is kind of proper, nevertheless it’s fairly shut. They use authoritarian, however the poisonous regime that exists in Russia now.
Paul Jay
So the Chilly Struggle by no means ended. And due to two fracture factors which can be so tense, the poisonous regime, which the West helped create, and the invasion of Ukraine, and now the probabilities that it might result in different fractures, and who is aware of what is going to occur in Georgia. However principally it’s China. And the competition within the South China Sea, the struggle over Taiwan, the need of the American military-industrial complicated and nuclear complicated to have an existential enemy, primary. In any other case, how do you justify spending a lot cash, which has actually been one of many cores of the entire thing. Quantity two, there’s a actual perception system within the people who run these items. What I imply these items, not who run the state, who run the Pentagon, who run firms like Palantier, Karp or Peter Thiel, who’s one of many founders of Palantier. He’s an investor in Andrew. They really imagine their very own bullshit. I imagine they imagine it the identical manner Hitler believed his metaphysics. And this perception system is deeply embedded in American tradition as a result of it goes proper again to slave house owners who believed that the protection of personal property equalled freedom. So if you may get your head round, defending slavery defends freedom.
Paul Jay
In the event you develop up in that milieu, that tradition, that white supremacy, which is the core of slave plantation house owners tradition. If you get your head round, by some means that equals Christianity. Someway that represents Jesus. Someway that represents freedom. Bear in mind, the founders of America and the American Revolution have been slave house owners. But they’re speaking all males are equal. As soon as you may get your head round this bizarre dualism, compartmentalism, that’s the core of American elite tradition. So that you get Dick Cheney’s funerals occurring as we converse. How does somebody like that purely imagine, simply say any bullshit to become profitable, like Cheney’s connection to Halliburton or the striving to seize Iraqi oil. I feel they really imagine that that’s justifiable in the identical manner slave house owners thought slavery was justifiable as a result of they characterize civilization. They They characterize actually what it’s they imagine in social Darwinism. They actually imagine that survival of the fittest is what drives human progress. And if we’re creating wealth alongside the best way, that’s simply a part of how the system works. It’s the identical manner people who ran tobacco firms might justify, despite the fact that they’re hiding tobacco research, they let their youngsters smoke tobacco executives as a result of it received them forward within the tobacco firms.
Paul Jay
So it’s an internalized view of the world that you may perceive while you perceive how the slave system works, as a result of it’s a continuation of that mentality.
Dr John Izzo
So Paul, one of many issues that as I listened to you, which I feel necessary for individuals within the West to acknowledge, is that in some ways the West drove the arms rights for every kind of causes that you just’ve actually are articulated. And as you stated, we might get into an entire dialog about the best way we have been with Russia put up the autumn of the Berlin Wall that helped, in a manner, arrange the Putin regime, et cetera. However I don’t need to go into that. However I feel you’ve carried out an awesome job of exhibiting the arc of how we received to this second. And but in the mean time that we’re at now, we have now now North Korea, actually the primary rogue state within the nuclear. If you concentrate on it, they’re actually the primary unstable state.
Paul Jay
Can I disagree with you? First rogue state is america.
Dr John Izzo
I perceive what you’re doing, however by rogue, what I imply is an unpredictable state. One of many causes the Chilly Struggle was in a position to One cause we didn’t blow ourselves up through the Chilly Struggle, for my part, is we had two comparatively steady states that had this equilibrium. And I don’t need to get an excessive amount of into North Korea, however that means now you’ve carried out an awesome job of exhibiting traditionally how we received right here. However now we have now as many nuclear weapons as we’ve ever had. The system is changing into extra superior than they’ve ever been, extra gamers than they’ve ever been. And so that you’ve carried out an awesome job setting as much as this second that we’ve come to. And I suppose one of many questions then turns into, how can we cease nuclear battle on this second? I ponder if I can bracket that for the second and speak about Daniel Ellsberg. Give it a bit teaser for viewers as a result of I clearly need to get into how can we cease nuclear battle now. However can we speak a bit bit about your expertise with Ellsberg? I’m going to show it over to Alon, however I need to come again to that query.
Dr John Izzo
I hope you’re having fun with this dialog we’re having with Paul Jay about cease nuclear battle as a lot as we’re. There’s so many good issues but to come back, so please don’t depart. However I wished to take a second and thanks for being part of our group and to encourage you to subscribe on no matter channel you’re watching or listening to this podcast on. Initially, for those who subscribe, it signifies that you’ll get notified each time a brand new podcast comes out and actually be despatched to our previous library as properly. Second, it helps us to develop this group and unfold these nice concepts.
Paul Jay
And please make a remark, as a result of each time you make a remark, it engages others to be within the dialog, which is admittedly what this podcast is all about.
Dr John Izzo
Another factor earlier than we get again to our dialog with Paul Jay. In simply a short while now, on December second, at 08: 00 AM Pacific Time, we’re having a reside podcast, our first reside podcast on Local weather Crossroads: Why Haven’t We Made Extra Progress and How Can We Make It Now? So please within the present notes, you’ll discover a hyperlink to join that December second reside podcast. It’s our first one, and we’d like to have you ever be part of it. Now, let’s get again to this necessary dialog. You stated that your upcoming movie, How one can Cease a Nuclear Struggle, is impressed, at the least partly by Daniel Eswell’s e-book, The Doomsday Machine.
Paul Jay
So what’s from Ellsberg considering most formed your method? And what did you be taught in your conversations with him? Nicely, to begin with, his arc as a real believer within the Chilly Struggle, to over years of discovering how what he believed to be true turned out to be lies. Even through the Pentagon papers, even when he’s exposing the lies of the Vietnam Struggle, he hasn’t totally realized simply what a whole cloth of BS he nonetheless believed, even after the trial. When individuals don’t know the story. He was charged with, I suppose, espionage or leaking secret paperwork. And the trial will get kicked due to the Watergate plumbers broke into his psychiatrist workplace. So it was prosecutorial misconduct, and so they threw the case out. Then he begins studying. And he begins studying individuals like Chomsky and Howard Zinn. He simply reads and reads and reads. And the sunshine bulb goes off for him. This isn’t simply dangerous coverage. It’s not only a mistake. It’s systemic. It’s within the DNA of the best way the system works, this army expansionism. So his arc is fascinating as a result of it retains making me keep in mind that individuals of excellent intent actually imagine believed within the Chilly Struggle, and so they didn’t have entry to the intelligence.
Paul Jay
They didn’t perceive the historic improvement. And that offers me some hope that if Ellsberg can come to comprehend these items, properly, possibly there’s different individuals inside these establishments. And also you see like an Edward Snowden kind. You see these Larry Wilkerson’s like that. I imply, Larry was totally believing within the… Actually, Larry, I suppose individuals know he was Colin Powell’s Chief of Employees, he volunteered to go to Vietnam as a result of he thought he was combating in opposition to the Communist scourge. And later in life, he denounced the Iraq battle, and he begins to comprehend he believed in a bunch of bullshit. Now, this It wasn’t to say the Soviet Union wasn’t a police state. Let me get to this a bit. It doesn’t fairly immediately reply your Ellsberg query, nevertheless it doesn’t get talked about sufficient. You may’t equate communism with Stalinism. It’s one type of socialism. There’s many various varieties, simply as there are numerous types of capitalism. You may’t equate capitalism with Hitler, or Pinochet, or Mussolini, These are significantly malignant types of capitalism, and Stalinism grew to become a very malignant type of socialism. And I gained’t get within the explanation why now. However individuals Individuals say, and I do know this isn’t your query, however I’m going to reply it anyway.
Paul Jay
Individuals say, properly, the place has there been a extra optimistic mannequin of socialism? The place is socialism not grow to be a police state? And it’s a quite simple reply. Nowhere. Why? As a result of the Individuals stored killing anyone that attempted it. In Chile, you will have a popularly elected President, Allende, who tries to develop a democratic democratic type of socialism, and the US, aligned with Chilean elites, stage a coup and kill the man. In Indonesia, you had a Communist Get together that participated in elections, had a democratic view of develop energy. And the US and the Indonesian elites have been so terrified that they’d win the election. They killed one million Communist and left wingers. 1,000,000. Blood was actually flowing within the streets. Lumumba in Africa, a Nationalist, however a Socialist. On no account a sympathizer of something like Stalinism. They assassinated Lumumba. Even in Europe. After the battle, in 1948, I suppose it’s, the Italian Communist Get together, which was taking part within the elections, rejected Stalinism. I imply, they nonetheless had formal ties, however the mannequin of socialism they wished to develop in Italy had nothing to do with what was occurring within the Soviet Union. The Individuals put in tens of millions and tens of millions of {dollars} to defeat the communists within the election and created a secret group known as P2.
Paul Jay
I don’t know for those who guys have heard of this factor known as Gladio. It’s this entire secret plan in lots of European nations beneath the auspices of NATO to intrude in any election in any nation the place they thought the Socialists/Communists may come to energy. And Berlusconi is the product of P2, and P2 labored with the Mafia. That is all on Wikipedia. These items could be very accessible. Simply search for Gladio, search for P2. The purpose is we haven’t seen this mannequin of a democratic type of socialism. And I’m not simply speaking socialism like free busses. And I’m not critiquing Mandani in New York. There’s solely a lot you are able to do beneath these conditions. However there have been makes an attempt to develop democratic fashions, and so they have been crushed. So I’ll cease there. If you wish to know extra about that, I’ll go on. Anyway, Dan began to comprehend all this. And in order that taught me one thing concerning the significance of don’t write individuals off simply because they imagine the Chilly Struggle mythology. I used to be going to do a movie about 9/11, and I used to be going to take a gaggle of 9/11 households to Afghanistan and Pakistan, and I’m simply going to comply with them round and get them to ask individuals Why do you hate us?
Paul Jay
Simply that. And let these households hear the reply. Anyway, so one of many guys I used to be going to take was a fireplace chief, whose son was a fireman, killed within the towers. He was a fireplace chief at 9/11 as properly. He shaped one thing after 9/11 known as Democrats for Bush as a result of he thought you bought to rally round your president. Anyway, I instructed him just a bit bit concerning the historical past of recent Afghanistan, the way it was the US that introduced bin Laden to Afghanistan. It was a part of the scheme of sucking the Russians into the battle and so forth. He didn’t know any of it. He didn’t know a single factor concerning the precise historical past, what led to the dying of his son. And his jaw dropped. So a part of coping with the hazard of nuclear battle as we speak, because of this I’m occurring about these items, is you must dispel the mythology of the Chilly Struggle as a result of everybody appears to be like at it by way of that prism. So once we hear the Chinese language are coming to get us, the Chinese language need to management the world. The Chinese language are going to have a army that may dominate the world.
Paul Jay
Individuals are likely to imagine it as a result of we’ve been instructed about this exterior, exaggerated risk from the time we’re born. So for those who get the historical past of the risk has been pushed primarily by financial components. There’s a time period known as army Keynesianism. After World Struggle II, it is a crucial level we’re going to make within the movie. The New Deal didn’t resolve the issue of the Nice Despair. It mitigated the results for a short while, however that stage of presidency spending wasn’t practically sufficient. So what really did, World Struggle II did, due to the large authorities spending. That’s what really plugged the outlet, if you would like, of the financial disaster. So when the battle is coming to an finish, even through the battle, once they see the way it’s going to finish, there’s an enormous determination to be made. How are you going to plug that gap that also exists? You want authorities spending. Is it going to be again to the New deal, however at a a lot larger stage, which is what Vice President Henry Wallace wished. And if you already know the Wallace story, Roosevelt’s vice President, they dumped Wallace in ’44, I suppose it’s, as a result of he needs a New deal on steroids.
Paul Jay
Or do you go to army expansionism and use the military-industrial complicated as a approach to stimulate the economic system? And naturally, we all know what they selected, and we will go into why they selected that versus the New Deal. But it surely’s basically the New Deal gave the employees leverage as a result of they didn’t need to concern unemployment. They didn’t need to concern being determined. The place army expansionism is simply boondoggle after bloody boondogle, basically battle profiteering. But it surely’s additionally along with geopolitical dominance. So the chance as we speak is, it is a continuation, is it extra harmful? Yeah. And I take your level. They knew the Soviet aspect have been very rational. No matter was occurring domestically. I interviewed Sam Nunn, and he made a extremely good level. Senator Sam Nun, he’s retired now. See, In the course of the Chilly Struggle, there was every kind of negotiations occurring for varied types of arms limitations treaties. There have been treaties agreed. One of many extra necessary really was the ’72 Anti-Balistic Missile Treaty. ‘ However none made an important level. The 2 sides have been speaking to one another. He was saying that’s nearly extra necessary than the agreements as a result of they received to know one another and so they realized they weren’t so totally different.
Paul Jay
They each side wished to keep away from nuclear battle. Nicely, now no one’s speaking to anyone. The regime, authorities, and energy in Russia could be very poisonous, very nationalistic. I don’t know if it’s irony, however Putin represents the middle, not the precise. He’s pressured by the Russian proper, the Orthodox Church, even the so-called Communist Get together, virulent Nationalist forces. I’ve interviewed progressive Russians. They are saying, Putin could also be doing horrible issues, however if you would like Putin to overthrow him, watch out what you want for, as a result of there’s loads of the forces on his proper that seemingly will come. Anyway, the true concern goes to grow to be, is and can be China, as a result of the very deeply rooted overseas coverage outlook is you possibly can’t have a peer competitor. Two, they’re devoted to nearly battle with China. And even individuals like Mirresheimer, who speak about, don’t inflame the state of affairs with the Russians and His critique of NATO is, I feel, principally proper. I feel he exaggerates it. However even Mirresheimer thinks the protection of the American sphere of affect in Asia is official. It’s very harmful as a result of the system itself, the worldwide capitalist system managed by america, is reaching an endpoint. Initially, the local weather disaster They’re in such denial or they’ve given up.
Paul Jay
The billionaire class thinks they and their grandchildren can be okay, and so they don’t need to assume any additional. The sensible ones, no. We’re right here already. Two Levels is already baked in. We’re inside 10, 15 years, and possibly much less, of tens of millions of individuals within the South need to go north. We’re inside possibly 15 years, the place a lot of the agriculture of america and China can be worn out. However they’re in denial. They don’t need to take care of it. Struggle has at all times been the reply. Each time the system is in deep disaster, the reply has at all times been battle. The issue now could be you’re coping with a lot nuclear weapon capability and the introduction of AI. You get a convergence of the local weather disaster, nuclear powers who don’t even speak to one another, a ramping up of American threats to China over Taiwan. Taiwan, which is the craziest state of affairs. How do you will have a one China coverage and nonetheless assume you possibly can defend Taiwan? I don’t perceive. The opposite huge lesson from Ellsberg, it’s not an all or nothing proposition. It’s not nuclear weapons finish of the world or abolish nuclear weapons. There are steps that may very well be taken to scale back the chance.
Paul Jay
That’s the large sensible lesson from Ellsberg. Primary, Do away with ICBMs. They’re pointless. All they’re is targets. When you will have this six minutes factor, the six minutes is simply as a result of it’s a use them or lose them with ICBMs. However the entire mythology of that’s that you may’t cease what’s coming in anyway. So that you may as properly let it hit and see if it’s actual. No one needs to say that. This current movie, Home of Dynamite. Among the issues in it are horrible. This concept {that a} missile hits Chicago, however you’ve solely received 10 minutes to resolve whether or not to launch your ICBM. I imply, one factor is, to begin with, Chicago doesn’t have any ICBM, so it’s received completely nothing to do with it. You possibly can eliminate ICBMs. You possibly can renegotiate an anti-ballistic missile treaty. You possibly can eliminate sole authority. You possibly can cease absolute any speak of testing. And now Putin and Trump are each speaking about restarting testing. Our movie, as soon as we get in, We’re going to take care of a historic context so individuals can clear their minds of the paranoia, then let’s concentrate on sensible steps as a result of there are some that at the least scale back the dangers.
Paul Jay
However as a substitute of specializing in lowering the chance, what’s really occurring? A brand new nuclear arms race and an AI arms race.
Dr John Izzo
Yeah. So Paul, once more, a lot carried out. Thanks for sharing these additional. I need to come again to these factors in a second. However simply to place some exclamation factors, some belongings you already stated. One is that this mentality of there’s solely going to be one winner and one loser, and we’re not going to speak to one another. Considered one of my mentors was John Morozo, a buddy who began the East-West Institute. Within the top of the Chilly Struggle, he’s one of many few individuals who go to the Kremlin and the White Home. However your level is, they have been speaking to one another. And this entire concept, which I really feel like, in fact, I can’t stand Trump. However one factor I feel Trump has over Biden is Trump at the least thinks you bought to speak to individuals. He’s not the precise man to speak to individuals. However Biden was like, We’re not going to speak to you, proper? We have now to speak to individuals, and we have now to imagine that it’s going to be a multipolar world now. Individuals should hand over the concept American would be the solely hegemon on the planet till we give that up.
Dr John Izzo
Economically, in fact, it’s a race. We need to win the financial race, so to talk. However we have now to acknowledge it’s not going to be a one nation world anymore. And till we give that up. And that’s what you stated. That’s what’s pushed a lot of this. We have to speak to one another. And you then’re moving into now the… Even in Ellsberg’s authentic e-book, The Doomsday Machine, he talked about how fragile the techniques have been. And now AI, as you stated, now part of that. How a lot of the choice making, if the President was to, for instance, grow to be incapacitated, is now delineated right down to others, so others might resolve to launch nuclear weapons. And so, as you stated, you gave 4 actually necessary issues, however all of them start speaking to one another once more. And naturally, Ukraine hasn’t helped that. The state of affairs in Ukraine has not helped that in any respect. And there’s every kind of historic explanation why that got here to be. However that has definitely sophisticated issues hasn’t it? As a result of it’s made relationships with, particularly, although I agree with you, within the huge China might be the larger concern in the long run.
Dr John Izzo
But in addition simply, as you stated, nonetheless having this home of dynamite round us. And it’s a powder ready for a spark.
Paul Jay
I need to return to one thing you stated proper on the very starting. Why are we speaking about this? Why is the difficulty of nuclear weapons and American nuclear coverage basically taboo? Within the final elections, the one person who even talked about nuclear weapons, presidential elections, was Trump, and solely to advertise his Golden Dome boondoggle. I name it the Golden Con. My different line is, it’s not It’s not concerning the dome, it’s concerning the gold. However aside from that, no one even talks about it. Within the media, you don’t hear a phrase about nuclear weapons. So why is that? As a result of the entire nuclear doctrine, the nuclear construction, the nuclear weapons, the entire thing is predicated on such mythology, lies, nonsense. Anybody that appears at it, how are you risking the Apocalypse? There’s no manner it’s not going to explode sometime. Anybody that research this is aware of and says, Everyone I’ve talked to, and I’ve talked to now, possibly 200 main consultants. All of them assume it’s basically inevitable. Sometime there’s going to be a mistake, a miscalculation. I really don’t assume it’s very seemingly there’s going to be a deliberate nuclear battle. I don’t assume the North Koreans are insane.
Paul Jay
It could be a weird nutty system. Not possibly, it’s, from what I can see. I haven’t been there. However they’re not suicidal. The true hazard proper now, and it’s excessive, is as pressure will increase over Taiwan, over the Philippines, that one thing occurs, a bunch of house rubbish knocks out some strategic satellites. Ai misinterprets it as the start of a primary strike. I’ve raised this with varied consultants who all assume it is a believable state of affairs. This use them or lose them factor. It’s so nonsensical As a result of there’s just one approach to know if an assault is actual, for those who see one thing coming in, is you bought to let it hit. In the event you let it hit, primary, you at all times have subs. So it’s not such as you’re going to lose your second strike functionality. Quantity two, you possibly can’t cease it anyway. It’s going to hit. It’s not like your alternative, Oh, allow them to hit. It’s going to hit. There’s no such factor as stopping an incoming ICBM assault. They speak about it now with Golden Dome, you’re going to have the ability to… Possibly you couldn’t cease a bullet with a bullet, however now that you’ve AI, that was the terminology, a missile bringing down an ICBM, it’s like hitting a bullet with a bullet.
Paul Jay
For the sake of argument, let’s say AI might hit a bullet with a bullet, and even but, there’s no proof of that. However let’s say AI can not distinguish between a bullet and a bullshit. No missile is available in simply as a missile. It is available in surrounded by a whole bunch of decays. There’s no AI on the planet that’s going to have the ability to inform the distinction between a missile. So So there isn’t any such factor like he needs to check the Golden Dome to the Israeli Iron Defend. These aren’t ICBMs which can be coming in. They’re simply ballistic missiles. Icbms are available in at 1000’s of miles per hour quicker. I imply, it’s simply nonsense. So the one factor is to be trustworthy about there isn’t any protection. Quantity two, why the hell is anybody launching a primary strike anyway? Why would they? Russia, China? They know the US has subs, primary. Quantity two, why would China that owns a trillion or extra of US {dollars}, they’re going to need to take out the American economic system? It’s nonsense. It’s ridiculousness. In order that they don’t speak about nuclear weapons as a result of the entire thing is utter BS, and at all times has been utter BS.
Paul Jay
Even the bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki was bullshit. It didn’t finish the battle. It’s clearly documented now.
Dr John Izzo
One of many factors that you just trace at right here, Paul, is it’s actually a miracle it hasn’t occurred, given how unstable it’s. And I noticed in certainly one of your interviews, the interviewer talked about that the previous head of the strategic command within the US had stated, Why hasn’t there been a nuclear battle? He stated, The unimaginable good sense of some individuals. He stated, Blind luck and divine intervention. And to the This suicidal level, I used to be talking on the School of Charleston simply after the Ukraine battle began, and one of many individuals on this system with me was the lady who had negotiated the final strategic arms treaty for NATO with the Russians. And I requested her on the aspect, I stated, Are you nervous that Putin goes to go nuclear? And she or he stated, Nicely, it’s a hazard, in fact, she stated, due to miscalculation. She stated, However no, as a result of I don’t assume he’s suicidal. However you already know what I believed, Paul? That’s a fairly skinny thread that we’re hanging by to imagine that we would sooner or later have a frontrunner who’s suicidal. So even that isn’t a assure. So long as we have now the home of Dynamite going, we will’t depend on that sooner or later.
Dr John Izzo
There may be a frontrunner with them who’s suicidal.
Paul Jay
We are saying Nixon in his final days was suicidal deep, deep in despair and alcohol. And his spouse and the senior employees round him needed to push him out of energy. And Dan Ellsberg definitely believed that Nixon deliberate to make use of nuclear weapons in Vietnam. Yeah, that’s an actual hazard. However the larger hazard, and so they don’t need to speak about it, is you can not belief the system of sensors and satellites and now AI. And there’s a lot potential for miscalculation when the underlying fact is there really is not any risk. It’s simply ridiculous. No main energy goes to begin a nuclear battle intentionally. So if that’s true, eliminate this bullshit deterrence that simply justifies a vast spending on arms, which is what it’s actually about. And never solely in america, there’s a military-industrial complicated in Russia, there’s one in China, however it’s principally pushed by the American aspect. So let me soar to a different endpoint right here. What can we do? Initially, begin speaking about it to all people you already know. Ask individuals, Do you concentrate on this? Are you aware there may be some concrete issues that may very well be carried out to scale back the chance?
Paul Jay
As a result of no one actually talks about that in any respect. In Congress, there’s a bit handful of members of the Senate and the Home who really concentrate on these items. However a lot A lot larger than them is one thing known as the ICBM Caucus, that characterize the states which have ICBMs, and struggle each try and eliminate ICBMs. Sam Nunn says, Do away with ICBM. Former SACDF Perry says, Do away with ICBMs. An entire whack of senior army political leaders say, eliminate ICBMs, as a result of proper now that’s what results in launch on warning. And so they do nothing. Subs can do no matter ICBMs do. You Don’t lose your deterrence. So it’s a really concrete step. So when the movie comes out, which can be within the early fall of 2027, as a result of we’re going to movie the midterm elections, and we’re going to go ask these sorts of inquiries to individuals which can be voting, received election rallies, we’re going to nook candidates and ask, Why aren’t you speaking about these items? We received to interrupt the taboo on not speaking concerning the nuclear danger. I ask a man, Mark Bly, I don’t know for those who heard him, an awesome political economist.
Paul Jay
He advises huge companies and all that. And I stated, why aren’t the elites extra freaked out? Why isn’t Wall Avenue freaked out? And so they bloody properly personal all these firms making nuclear weapons. They might cease it in a single day. Why aren’t they freaked out? He stated, The issue with nuclear battle and nuclear danger is you possibly can’t hedge in opposition to it. That means it’s an all or nothing proposition. It’s a nuclear battle, and we’re all worn out, however there’s no or. So for those who can’t hedge the chance, it’s higher to disregard it, be in denial. So we’re permitting the elites The billionaire class who’re in an orgy of revenue making. There’s been nothing prefer it within the historical past of humanity. A lot focus of wealth and energy. They might quite be in denial, reside on their yachts and have their ladies and no matter their factor is. And so they’re main us over the cliff. So we have now to resolve to not allow them to resolve the destiny of humanity. And the beginning of it’s, let’s bloody at the least speak about these items. Don’t vote for anyone who doesn’t have this as a part of their marketing campaign. And from that perspective, Paul, for those who might converse on to atypical residents who really feel powerless within the face of such an enormous concern, nuclear battle, what can they really do this issues now?
Paul Jay
Nicely, two issues. Within the elections, hold elevating this concern. Say, I’m not voting for you until you will have an actual plan scale back the chance of nuclear battle. And I don’t care what occasion you might be. In the event you don’t have that plan, at the least pressure these, go to all candidates conferences, go to election rallies, wherever you possibly can. In the event you’re at a faculty or a church or a union, Get them to take a place on this. Movie comes out. We hope the movie turns into a device for individuals to be taught and educate themselves about these points, promote the movie. Make it private as a result of it’s private as a result of It’s you and your youngsters. That is crucial factor to get. It’s not essentially all or nothing. Yeah, nuclear battle wipes us all out. There’s no query. Any BS that can get well in a 12 months is simply nonsense. However we will scale back It’s the chance of error and miscalculation, which is the larger hazard proper now. So we received to place it in your agenda. You’re at dinner with any person. You realize what I heard? Everyone wherever you might be in society, most individuals belong to one thing, even it’s a Rotary Membership, the Legion.
Paul Jay
And it doesn’t matter. It’s certainly one of these uncommon points that transcends regular political divisions. No one needs a nuclear battle. It doesn’t matter. I’d guess 90 % of people who vote for Trump don’t need a nuclear battle. I don’t assume Trump needs a nuclear battle. However the issue with Trump is, one, there’s a lot cash to be made out of virtually battle. And two, the Golden Dome is the largest boondoggle you possibly can think about, and he’s surrounded by crazies and by these the crazies, I imply like Peter Thiel and Alex Karp and others in Silicon Valley who’re basically techno-fascists, techno-Christian, spiritual fascists, who’re creating the identical metaphysical view of the world that surrounded Hitler and Mussolini. And possibly Hitler is much more an instance. And other people like Peter Thiel really quote Nazis in his personal writings. I suppose we will speak about one other So it’s a very harmful second, however don’t get paralyzed by it.
Dr John Izzo
Crucial factors there, Paul, and we will’t wait to see the movie. I imply, it’s so well timed and so necessary, as I stated within the opening, as a result of we’re not speaking about it, as a result of we’re pretending it’s not occurring. And also you’re proper. One cause is as a result of you possibly can’t hedge. There’s an awesome story, really, through the Cuban Missile Disaster. True story, a couple of younger stockbroker who was out promoting every part within the top of the Cuban Missile Disaster. His boss stated, What the hell are you doing? He stated, I’m promoting every part? There’s a rumor that the missiles are on the best way. He stated, No, purchase every part. He stated, As a result of if the missiles are on the best way, it doesn’t matter. But when the missiles don’t come, every part’s going to go up. However that denial is a part of the issue, isn’t it? That it’s so huge, it’s so horrifying. It’s such an finish of the world. We all know regardless of wealthy you might be, you possibly can’t disguise from That doesn’t make it much less necessary. It possibly makes it extra necessary for movies like yours as a result of that’s why we’re not speaking about it, as a result of it’s so huge and we really feel so powerless.
Dr John Izzo
And we really feel, Oh, it may well’t probably occur as a result of It may well’t be that silly, proper? However as you stated, the true hazard is miscalculation is extra seemingly if any person decides to go suicidal, although we all know that’s doable, however we all know that’s the least seemingly. Let me simply say it once more.
Paul Jay
Do away with ICBM, no golden daybreak, No new testing. Even it’s simply beginning simply these three issues, even. Enormously scale back the chance of nuclear battle.
Dr John Izzo
And all of it begins, and I feel you made an awesome level, Paul. Sadly, time touches barely. We’re going to have to finish now. Is that it begins with us as residents need to ask these questions. We’ve received to place it on the agenda. Politicians, what’s the primary driver of all politicians, aside from a couple of with deep values, to win the subsequent election? If the residents don’t care about it, they’re most likely not going to speak about it, aside from, once more, there are points. Clearly, there are individuals of nice character in politics, too. However the actuality is that they reply to us. So we’ve received to get this on the agenda. And thanks for taking over this venture and in your life’s work. We actually respect the time you’ve given us as we speak.
Paul Jay
Thanks. And I’ll simply add not solely elections, however be able to hit the streets, too.
Dr John Izzo
Yeah, undoubtedly. We’re going to need to.
Paul Jay
This wants mass protests. We have now to converge the local weather and the nuclear points who’s in actually hit the streets and be very vigilant on the poll field.
Dr John Izzo
Wonderful. Alon, I’ll provide you with an opportunity to only say a ultimate phrase, after which I’ll shut this up. It was a ultimate phrase within the body of the query for me, too, after spending a lot time immersed on this existential risk. How do you personally keep grounded and hopeful?
Paul Jay
That’s humorous. I requested Ellsberg that as a result of he smiles on a regular basis. I don’t smile wherever like he does. He would say, he would speak concerning the finish the world after which get away in an enormous smile. However I outline myself as a medical optimist. Each rational bone in my physique would lead me to being quite pessimistic. However humanity has overcome fairly horrible issues prior to now. And what’s the choice? I’m not going to reside a lifetime of being depressed and succumbing to the paranoia and the concern. It’s a greater life to struggle. It’s a greater life to struggle for humanity. And I’ll simply finish with one factor. The opposite factor individuals want, I feel, hand over. Quit our American identification, Canadian identification. Begin to detach from all this nationwide identification, as a result of what we’re, objectively, are people. That needs to be our identification. We’re people. And there aren’t going to be many people if we don’t step up.
Dr John Izzo
Nicely, thanks, Paul. Nice, nice approach to finish. So to shut us out, Leonin Brejnev, the previous head of the Soviet Union, as soon as stated about nuclear battle. He stated, There are not any winners in nuclear battle. The residing would envy the useless. Nearly all of the individuals who’ve had their arms on these weapons have realized that in a single kind or one other. I’m going again to my very own childhood, and also you share that, Paul. I all of us do on this podcast as we speak, of that concern I felt as a teen simply being in New York Metropolis and figuring out that we have been focused, these ICBMs might come at any second. And we will’t be paralyzed by that concern, however we will’t disguise from it both. Simply because the reality is tough, simply because the reality is overwhelming, doesn’t imply we will run away from it. So thanks for shining a light-weight on this. We hope we on this podcast have proven a light-weight on this factor that continues to be an existential risk to all of us and actually to all life on Earth. You’re part of our group since you care concerning the future, and that’s why we might love to listen to from you.
Dr John Izzo
In the event you love what you’ve seen as we speak, please share it. In the event you’d prefer to see one thing totally different, please inform us and ensure to subscribe on any channel that you just’re on and prefer it. It helps us and it helps you. In the meantime, we at all times remind you on the finish of each podcast, historical past just isn’t a vacation spot ready for us to reach. What we’ll we sooner or later name historical past would be the results of what we, you and I, and every of us collectively, select to do proper now on this second, which can form what we sooner or later will name historical past. We’ll see you subsequent time on the best way ahead.
Alain Gauthier
Thanks for becoming a member of us on this episode of The Approach ahead: Regenerative Conversations podcast. I’m Jim Burke, the producer. We’d like to increase our heartfelt due to our sponsors, elders’ Motion Community and elders’ Local weather Motion for his or her unwavering help in making this podcast doable. Their dedication to empowering elders to take motion on local weather change and social justice points is actually inspiring. In the event you discovered this dialog as enlightening and motivating as we did, please subscribe to our podcast and YouTube channels. Your subscription helps us proceed bringing these important discussions to a broader viewers. Don’t overlook to share this episode together with your community, and let’s work collectively to construct a greater world for all generations. Discover us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Amazon, and now on Instagram and YouTube Shorts. Collectively, we will make a distinction. We’d love to listen to your suggestions on as we speak’s episode and any ideas you will have for future visitors. Please ship your ideas and proposals to thewayforwardrc@gmail. Com. Your enter is invaluable in serving to us form the way forward for this podcast. To be taught extra about our sponsors and become involved, go to eldersactionnetwork@eldersaction. Org and eldersclimateaction@eldersclimateaction. Org. Thanks for being a part of the Wayforward group.
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